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Best scope choice?


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#21 Plene Paratus

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 11:20 AM

This is absolute truth.

I have "old eyes". Can't see irons. Or...When I can see irons with corrective lenses, I can't see the target. Aimpoint to the rescue! My old Comp M2 mounted on my bone stock M&P15 would ring a MGM flasher at 300 EVERY.SINGLE.TIME as long as that 4mil dot was covering the target. I use Aimpoint PROs now so I can see a bit of target around that dot.  Now when you are jittering like a squirrel on meth from drinking the amount of coffee that I do? Well, no optic can help with that.  Past 300 requires a little magnification and is mandatory for me.  20X just isn't needed for mortal men.  How many years did the Marine Corps snipers use fixed power 10s?

I guess the moral to this post is that different tasks require different tools.

Everyone at the last sniper school I went to spent the majority of their time at 18x to 25x (for HR shots, I used 25x at 335 yds). The Marine Corps is currently issuing a Nightforce 5-25x scope. They used 10x fixed Unertl scopes for a very long time, because doctrinally, the rule of thumb was 1x per 100 yds, and they tended to stay within 1000 yds. Also, there weren't many scopes out there (particularly variables) that met the reliability requirements of the sniper's job. Finally, if fixed was the only viable choice, you had to weigh a ton of factors in selecting the one scope to rule them all. 10x is certainly usable at 100 yds (the FOV will suck, but still usable), while still being adequate at 1000, for most shots a sniper would take.The current 5-25x makes things easier all the way around.

I'm not denying that 10x isn't what I would consider "necessary" for most 300 yd shooting. For some, it is definitely helpful. We don't know what the OP is hoping to use the rifle for, so it's hard to say if they would find such magnification useful. 



#22 KurtM

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 01:55 PM

On a deployment, guys had just received the cool new 10x unertil scope. Everyone loved it, HOWEVER, the area we were in had a bit of warmth and the mirage made these wonder scopes less than utile past 330 yards. If guys had had the old 3-9s they could have dialed down.....but no, bigger, better more!!! The answer was a spotter with 7.5x binoculars and the shooters resorting to our accurized M-14s with IRON sigts. If everyone was spending all their time on 18x it sure wasn't warm!!! Everything has it's place, but less complicated/over magnified is always going to be better over a larger range of uses!

#23 Plene Paratus

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 03:01 PM

On a deployment, guys had just received the cool new 10x unertil scope. Everyone loved it, HOWEVER, the area we were in had a bit of warmth and the mirage made these wonder scopes less than utile past 330 yards. If guys had had the old 3-9s they could have dialed down.....but no, bigger, better more!!! The answer was a spotter with 7.5x binoculars and the shooters resorting to our accurized M-14s with IRON sigts. If everyone was spending all their time on 18x it sure wasn't warm!!! Everything has it's place, but less complicated/over magnified is always going to be better over a larger range of uses!

It was in the 90's. Elevation was 1100 ft, humidity was in the 40's. Mirage was not an issue. It was present. 

 

Pic through 20x spotting scope. 

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#24 KurtM

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 05:41 PM

Yep, not warm! Guy,s loved the good old M-14 over the M-16 A2 because in the heat you could still grab on to a wood stock without gloves! The AR in the direct sunlight tended to need gloves to even touch....all "black and plasticy". Funny thing about mirage, the warmer it got " 118-125" the better no magnification worked, and I'm told some of the guys got results out to around 600 or so. The trick was to pick the center the images floating around and trust your spotter!....... They never did like Sandbag City, but they did learn to respect the capability of it's densien.

A quote for an amigo of mine "we make Volkswagens fly" and he will know what I mean!

#25 Plene Paratus

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 05:54 PM

I'm sure the US Army, NSW, and the USMC will all be surprised to learn that 10x and above is worthless in 120-degree heat. It's a miracle their snipers and the Canadians and Brits have been smoking dudes with high magnification in the desert for almost 20 years.  

 

I'll point out that every branch is currently using glass with 18x+ as the top-end of the magnification, with options pushing into 25x.

I'll also refer you to PRS, where, go figure, all of the most popular scopes have top-end magnification of at least 18x, with well over 90% of shooters opting for 25x+.

http://precisionrifl...copes-pros-use/

 

All of these shooters routinely shoot in hot conditions, yet they choose glass that gives them the option of going high in magnification...because it is used, and not infrequently. Every 8541/0317 I know lives the majority of their life in the 10-18x range of magnification (btw, even in 120+ heat, 10x does not produce crazy distortion from mirage). They bounce lower to seek out targets, or for extraordinarily close stuff, and they bounce higher for shots that require better PID/are farther away/require more precision. 

 

ETA: I frequently dial my magnification up to see mirage more clearly, because it happens to be an excellent way to read wind.



#26 KurtM

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 12:48 PM

Whether you wish to believe it or not is really imaterial, it is a great real life example of too much magnification being detrimental. Yes the U.S.M.C. was surprised that this occurred. The area was right near a coast and the humidity was also very high, unlike the Deserts you allude to which aren't near large bodies of water. But like the old saying goes, if you weren't there it couldn't have happened.

#27 Plene Paratus

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 04:38 PM

Let's assume that I wasn't also in the Marine Corps, and that I didn't also deploy to hot humid environs in the early 90's

Now what does that have to do with folks in the continental United States...say in OK? Whole lotta stupidly humid days at 123 degrees? Coasts really close?

#28 KurtM

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 06:09 PM

O.P. isn't from OK.
Just an example of too much manification.
I never assumed that you were or weren't, but if the early 90s is what you are aluding too, All I could possibly say to that is.......
what a boot.

#29 Plene Paratus

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 06:43 PM

Yes, the 80's and 70's were chock full of combat deployments, and not at all plagued by horrible drug problems throughout the services. From the article I read about you, you are 60? So, earliest you could have gone in was what? 1975? Yeah, you and Smedley Butler must have been drinking buddies. The Iranian embassy hostage taking (not humid) If you were helo crew, the Iranian Embassy attempt rescue (not humid), Beirut (not humid), Grenada, Panama were the "hotpots" during that time. Panama was actually my era, and since you are so salty, I know you couldn't possibly have been there. So please, tell me all about the Great War, oh-salty-one. LOL

#30 KurtM

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 09:43 PM

Nah, Butler was a mean drunk, I like to drink with Hanneken, and by convention if you enlisted just 1 day after anyone they could jokingly refer to you as "boot", but I guess that tradition died out before you enlisted.

#31 dennishoddy

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 12:05 AM

Well, I like magnification because my old eyes are having issues. Macular eye degeneration sucks. I can tune my scopes to the issues as they flux. I have to take a needle in the eye every 5 weeks now to suppress it, and each injection changes the focal point of the eye for the next 5 weeks. 

Irons no longer in the equation for shooting competitively or in hunting situations. Red dots have taken over for close range out to 100 yds, and magnification beyond. I've taken game over 500 yards, and steel at 1100 yards so long distance isn't something I'm not familiar with. 

In the past I've attended the National matches at Camp Perry as part of the military and have seen some amazing shooters with irons and scopes out to the 1000 yard mark in matches. Amazing shooters. 

Shooting irons accurately at long range requires an immense amount of practice and skill on top of the other variables involved in long range shooting, wind, humidity, temperature, etc. Anyone versed in that skill gets my nod as a very skilled shooter. 

That being said, I don't see a lot of current sniper pics without a scope involved, and I'm not versed in what level of magnification they are using, but they appear in the pics to be at minimum of a 50MM objective.

I'm of the opinion that if you are expert enough to shoot irons at long distance do so. If magnification is what you require, do so. 

It shouldn't resolve into a pissing contest. (I have to say that because I'm a mod.) 

My opinions are my own, so please proceed with the discussion and feel free to comment on my comments.  :triniti:



#32 KurtM

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 11:53 AM

The only comment I have is that I am very sorry that you have macular degeneration amigo! My dad had that and you have my utmost compassion! Towards the end red dots we're the only way he could shoot, but he never stopped shooting because he loved it so.

#33 Josh Cobb

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 12:14 PM

Yes, the 80's and 70's were chock full of combat deployments, and not at all plagued by horrible drug problems throughout the services. From the article I read about you, you are 60? So, earliest you could have gone in was what? 1975? Yeah, you and Smedley Butler must have been drinking buddies. The Iranian embassy hostage taking (not humid) If you were helo crew, the Iranian Embassy attempt rescue (not humid), Beirut (not humid), Grenada, Panama were the "hotpots" during that time. Panama was actually my era, and since you are so salty, I know you couldn't possibly have been there. So please, tell me all about the Great War, oh-salty-one. LOL


Wow. This is the best thread I’ve seen on BoomerShooter since Micah left.

Thanks P.P. for making it interesting again.

That said, I would pick up a 1-4x scope and a solid mount. 1-6x scopes are nice, but that extra 2x can be expensive.


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#34 dennishoddy

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 07:13 PM

The only comment I have is that I am very sorry that you have macular degeneration amigo! My dad had that and you have my utmost compassion! Towards the end red dots we're the only way he could shoot, but he never stopped shooting because he loved it so.

Unfortunately that's my future, but the dots aren't so bad either. Keeps one in the game.






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