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Is it Legal in Oklahoma?


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#1 Ron J

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 11:10 PM

One of those guns that you don't need ... but kind'a want.  The Remington TAC-13, TAC-14 and Mossberg Shockwave are if anything interesting. 

 

While classified as a "Firearm" under federal law and not a Class 3/NFA weapon ... are they legal in Oklahoma? 

 

I don't recall seeing either the Remingtons or Mossbergs at any local gun store which leads me to think they are not legal (or just out-of-stock).  .   

 

Any thoughts? 



#2 dennishoddy

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 07:40 PM

Hopefully someone knows.

#3 Ron J

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 11:17 PM

Hey Dennis ... Hope all is well. 

 

I wrote the AG but he/his office has not responded.  Wrote the city attorney for recommendations as to who to talk to and he did respond recommending that I connect with a lawyer. 

 

One of the LGS's told me that they were kind of "grey" on the law. 

 

Not sure "why" I want one ... other than "why not?"  The Remington TAC-13 does have my attention.  Little pricey but again, "why not?" 



#4 dennishoddy

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 09:50 AM


Your reasoning sounds perfectly logical to me!

whats “odd” is that the city attorney who is a lawyer told you to contact a lawyer about the very thing he should be in charge of.....city ordinances.

#5 Ron J

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 07:47 PM

Yep!  He didn't want to give legal advice.  Little disappointed.  Even more in the AG's office for not responding.  Law should be dichotomous ... being either legal or illegal. 

 

Someone on the SIG FORUM said that the OK 2A group was looking into this with the State.  Did not notice anything at the website. 

 

Another way to look at this, if I were in the marketing department of either Remington or Mossberg, I would want the State of Oklahoma to clarify so I could sell more "Firearms".  While I do not and would not expect them to give any legal advice, I am not seeing any effort from them regarding the legality of their product in our state.  

 

Also noticed that Bud's Gun Shop does not have Oklahoma on the "Will Not Ship" list for these items.   While it is not legal opinion, it does indicate that they do not have any information that specifically says "no" for OK. 

 

Pressing on ...  



#6 Rick Howell

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:36 PM

Your reasoning sounds perfectly logical to me!

whats “odd” is that the city attorney who is a lawyer told you to contact a lawyer about the very thing he should be in charge of.....city ordinances.



I don’t believe you will find a city ordinance addressing much more than discharging firearms in city limits.

#7 Rick Howell

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:59 PM

Bottom line is they are illegal by the language in the Oklahoma statutes as they are now written.

It is seems obvious to me the intent of the statute is to allow in the state of Oklahoma what is allowed under federal law, or they would not the allow the exemption for firearms registered under the National Firearms Act.

However they are still a “sawed-off shotgun” by OK statute while being a title I firearm under federal law instead of a title II firearm regulated by the NFA.

Would you likely be prosecuted? I’d guess not, not unless there were other factors and charges involved. Could a county DA still charge you for his own agenda? I think so.

I don’t want to be a test case, do I’ll stick with my title II NFA registered Short Barrel Shotgun and the restrictions I have to live with on it.

What a store has, is willing to sell, or ship to you has no bearing on the actual legality of it.

Someone or organization needs to be bending the ears of our legislators to fix the hole in the statute. But I’m sure priorities are an issue.

#8 Spencer

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 09:10 AM

What Rick said. The barrel length on the shockwave-style shotguns is under 18 inches. So it's a felony because it doesn't include "intended to be fired from the shoulder" or "having a stock" or anything similar in the definition like under the NFA. Under that definition, the Taurus Judge is illegal too. Even all 9mm, 40, and 45 pistols would be illegal if the snakeshot you can buy at walmart "may reasonably be expected to be able to cause lethal injury." Under the NFA, shotguns are defined to include "intended to be fired from the shoulder," which the shockwave-style shotguns clearly aren't. See 26 USC 5845.
 
21 OS 1289.18:
 
 
A. "Sawed-off shotgun" shall mean any firearm capable of discharging a series of projectiles of any material which may reasonably be expected to be able to cause lethal injury, with a barrel or barrels less than eighteen (18) inches in length, and using either gunpowder, gas or any means of rocket propulsion.
 
B. "Sawed-off rifle" shall mean any rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than sixteen (16) inches in length or any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches in length, including the stock portion.
 
C. Every person who has in his possession or under his immediate control a sawed-off shotgun or a sawed-off rifle, whether concealed or not, shall upon conviction be guilty of a felony for the possession of such device, and shall be punishable by a fine not to exceed One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or imprisonment in the State Penitentiary for a period not to exceed two (2) years, or both such fine and imprisonment.
 
D. It is a defense to prosecution under this section, if the approved application form that authorized the making or transfer of the particular firearm to the defendant, which indicates the registration of the firearm to said defendant pursuant to the National Firearm's Act, is introduced.
 
26 USC 5845:
 
(d)Shotgun
 
The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell.


#9 Spencer

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 10:22 AM

Also, SB24 has been filed for 2019 which will fix the discrepancies between the state and federal definitions for short-barrel firearms. Call your state house/senate reps and tell them to pass it!



#10 Rick Howell

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 02:59 PM

Also, SB24 has been filed for 2019 which will fix the discrepancies between the state and federal definitions for short-barrel firearms. Call your state house/senate reps and tell them to pass it!


I’m glad to see it is being addressed. Thanks for the update.

#11 dennishoddy

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 03:10 PM

What Rick said. The barrel length on the shockwave-style shotguns is under 18 inches. So it's a felony because it doesn't include "intended to be fired from the shoulder" or "having a stock" or anything similar in the definition like under the NFA. Under that definition, the Taurus Judge is illegal too. Even all 9mm, 40, and 45 pistols would be illegal if the snakeshot you can buy at walmart "may reasonably be expected to be able to cause lethal injury." Under the NFA, shotguns are defined to include "intended to be fired from the shoulder," which the shockwave-style shotguns clearly aren't. See 26 USC 5845.

21 OS 1289.18:

http://www.oscn.net/...sp?CiteID=69775

A. "Sawed-off shotgun" shall mean any firearm capable of discharging a series of projectiles of any material which may reasonably be expected to be able to cause lethal injury, with a barrel or barrels less than eighteen (18) inches in length, and using either gunpowder, gas or any means of rocket propulsion.

B. "Sawed-off rifle" shall mean any rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than sixteen (16) inches in length or any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches in length, including the stock portion.

C. Every person who has in his possession or under his immediate control a sawed-off shotgun or a sawed-off rifle, whether concealed or not, shall upon conviction be guilty of a felony for the possession of such device, and shall be punishable by a fine not to exceed One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or imprisonment in the State Penitentiary for a period not to exceed two (2) years, or both such fine and imprisonment.

D. It is a defense to prosecution under this section, if the approved application form that authorized the making or transfer of the particular firearm to the defendant, which indicates the registration of the firearm to said defendant pursuant to the National Firearm's Act, is introduced.

26 USC 5845:
https://www.law.corn...de/text/26/5845

(d)Shotgun

The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell.


I was under the understanding that the Taurus Judge an using snake shot in pistols was legal because of the rifled barrels. The Judge is not a smooth bore.

#12 Spencer

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 03:46 PM

I was under the understanding that the Taurus Judge an using snake shot in pistols was legal because of the rifled barrels. The Judge is not a smooth bore.

 

Under Federal law using the Federal definition.

 

Where in the state law definition does it reference rifling/smooth bore?  It doesn't. Below is the definition broken down into a list. Ask yourself for each element, does it apply to the Taurus Judge?

 

 "Sawed-off shotgun" shall mean any

(1) firearm [the Judge is a firearm]

(2) capable of discharging a series of projectiles of any material [the Judge is capable of discharging a series of projectiles via .410 shot shells]

(3) which may reasonably be expected to be able to cause lethal injury, [.410 buckshot can be lethal]

(4) with a barrel or barrels less than eighteen (18) inches in length, and [the Judge's barrel is under 18 inches]

(5) using either gunpowder, gas or any means of rocket propulsion. [the Judge uses gunpowder, gas, etc]

 

Even though Marijuana is legal under state law now (as long as you follow the rules), it is still illegal under Federal law. Similarly, something legal under federal law can be illegal under state law. We live in a dual-sovereignty nation with at least 2 sets of laws.

 

That said, SB24 should fix the issue for the shockwave and the judge.



#13 Ron J

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 04:10 PM

Like what Rick said, smart move is not to take a chance and test if this is legal or not and wait as to what Spencer said when SB24 is signed and in the books.  I will wait until then ... probably will talk myself out of that Remington TAC-13 by then.



#14 dennishoddy

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 10:29 PM

Great info guys!
Appreciate the discussion.

#15 Terry Kendell (Old Gun)

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 08:58 PM

Under Federal law using the Federal definition.

 

Where in the state law definition does it reference rifling/smooth bore?  It doesn't. Below is the definition broken down into a list. Ask yourself for each element, does it apply to the Taurus Judge?

 

 "Sawed-off shotgun" shall mean any

(1) firearm [the Judge is a firearm]

(2) capable of discharging a series of projectiles of any material [the Judge is capable of discharging a series of projectiles via .410 shot shells]

(3) which may reasonably be expected to be able to cause lethal injury, [.410 buckshot can be lethal]

(4) with a barrel or barrels less than eighteen (18) inches in length, and [the Judge's barrel is under 18 inches]

(5) using either gunpowder, gas or any means of rocket propulsion. [the Judge uses gunpowder, gas, etc]

 

Even though Marijuana is legal under state law now (as long as you follow the rules), it is still illegal under Federal law. Similarly, something legal under federal law can be illegal under state law. We live in a dual-sovereignty nation with at least 2 sets of laws.

 

That said, SB24 should fix the issue for the shockwave and the judge.

 

 

Contender with a 45 Colt, 10" Barrel

It also fires 410 (2 1/2 Shells)

and a screw in choke

 

Is it still legal


Old Gun   AKA Terry Kendell  (Old & Slow)
(Blind in One Eye ands can't see out of the other)

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#16 dennishoddy

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 08:31 PM

 

Contender with a 45 Colt, 10" Barrel

It also fires 410 (2 1/2 Shells)

and a screw in choke

 

Is it still legal

 

I found an interesting thread on USA Carry that addresses and quotes the Oklahoma statutes. 

https://www.usacarry...hotgun-law.html



#17 Spencer

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 08:51 PM

 

Contender with a 45 Colt, 10" Barrel

It also fires 410 (2 1/2 Shells)

and a screw in choke

 

Is it still legal

 

 

 

As you described it, no. 

 

 "Sawed-off shotgun" shall mean any
(1) firearm [the Contender is a firearm]
(2) capable of discharging a series of projectiles of any material [the Contender is capable of discharging a series of projectiles via .410 shot shells]
(3) which may reasonably be expected to be able to cause lethal injury, [.410 buckshot can be lethal]
(4) with a barrel or barrels less than eighteen (18) inches in length, and [the Contender's barrel is under 18 inches]
(5) using either gunpowder, gas or any means of rocket propulsion. [the Contender uses gunpowder, gas, etc]


#18 dennishoddy

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 09:27 PM

These are the actual citations of the thread I quoted above. 

 

§21-1289.5. Definitions for Firearms Act - Shotguns.
DEFINITIONS FOR FIREARMS ACT
"Shotguns" as used in the Oklahoma Firearms Act of 1971, Sections 1289.1 through 1289.17 of this title, shall mean any firearm capable of discharging a series of projectiles of any material which may reasonably be expected to be able to cause lethal injury, with a barrel or barrels more than eighteen (18) inches in length, and using either gunpowder, gas or any means of rocket propulsion, but not to include any weapon so designed with a barrel less than eighteen (18) inches in length. In addition, any "shotgun" capable of firing single projectiles but primarily designed to fire multiple projectiles such as "shot" will be regarded as a "shotgun".

and
 

 
§21-1290.2. Definitions.
DEFINITIONS
As used in Sections 1 through 25 of this act:
1. "Concealed handgun" means a loaded or unloaded pistol carried hidden from the detection and view of another person either upon or about the person, in a purse or other container belonging to the person, or in a vehicle which is operated by the person or in which the person is riding as a passenger; and
2. "Pistol" means any derringer, revolver or semiautomatic firearm which:
a. has an overall length of less than sixteen (16) inches and is able to be fully concealed from detection and view,
b. is capable of discharging a projectile composed of any material which may reasonably be expected to be able to cause lethal injury,
c. is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand, and
d. uses either gunpowder, gas or any means of rocket propulsion to discharge the projectile.
The definition of pistol for purposes of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act shall not apply to homemade or imitation pistols, flare guns, underwater fishing guns or blank pistols.
Added by Laws 1995, c. 272, § 2, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.


#19 Spencer

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 10:40 PM

Edit

#20 Ron J

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 12:11 AM

So ... The TAC-13 from Remington has a 13" barrel.  To be a shotgun according to 21-1289.5 it has to have a barrel of 18" but not to include any barrel less that 18"? 

 

The question is ... if I test this and get a TAC-13 will I get raped in prison?  Call me straight ... but I really don't want to go to prison (no matter how good Taco Tuesday is) and I REALLY do not want to get raped.






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